Monk ne devait pas savoir jouer une seule de ces partitions que vous exhibez comme des trophées une fois que vous pouvez les jouer. Et pourtant il a fait plus pour la musique que nous tous ici réunis. Non?
Pourquoi?...
[/u]
Monk vs Sportifs du piano
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zarathoustra
- Messages : 1878
- Enregistré le : jeu. 22 juin, 2006 1:37
- Mon piano : Pigeon fermier de keriven fourré au foie
Bah faut pas vous énerver! La question reste posée, à savoir: Le talent d'un musicien est-il vraiment lié à la performance ou vous est-il envisageable que quelqu'un qui ne sait faire un double salto puisse être plus émouvant qu'un Ben Johnson du clavier? D'ailleurs le dopage devrait bientôt faire son apparition dans les coulisses des grands concours. Et puis il faudrait penser à mettre des haies avant le piano ce serait plus impressionnant encore.
SHREK.
SHREK.
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egtegt
- Messages : 3287
- Enregistré le : jeu. 24 juin, 2004 2:17
- Mon piano : Blüthner 2m10 et Casio PX110
- Localisation : Saverne
Détrompe toi au moins sur une chose : Beaucoup de pianistes de Jazz connus on étudié le classique et sont capable de jouer bien mieux que quiconque sur ce forum.
Oscar Peterson par exemple faisait écouter ses impros de Jazz à son prof de piano, qui lui enseignait du classique.
Keith Jarreth à enregistré Bach et à joué du classique en concert avec Chris Rea (Il y avait une vidéo il y a pas longtemps sur ce forum)
La légende du pianiste de Jazz ayant appris à jouer à l'oreille et ne sachant pas lire une partition est en grande partie fausse. Il y en a eu, bien sûr, mais pas tant que ça.
Et puis vouloir à tout prix opposer le classique et le Jazz est sans intérêt. Ca n'est absolument pas une question de virtuosité. Monk faisait lui aussi preuve d'une grande virtuosité. Et j'ai vu une fois un pianiste de Jazz qui jouait plus vite que n'importe quel pianiste classique que j'ai pu voir (mais c'était nul quand même ce qu'il faisait).
La seule différence, c'est qu'en Jazz, on improvise plus qu'en classique. Mais il y a des robots en Jazz et des musiciens émouvant en classique.
Voila, pour mon 1000° message, j'ai alimenté un TROLL
Oscar Peterson par exemple faisait écouter ses impros de Jazz à son prof de piano, qui lui enseignait du classique.
Keith Jarreth à enregistré Bach et à joué du classique en concert avec Chris Rea (Il y avait une vidéo il y a pas longtemps sur ce forum)
La légende du pianiste de Jazz ayant appris à jouer à l'oreille et ne sachant pas lire une partition est en grande partie fausse. Il y en a eu, bien sûr, mais pas tant que ça.
Et puis vouloir à tout prix opposer le classique et le Jazz est sans intérêt. Ca n'est absolument pas une question de virtuosité. Monk faisait lui aussi preuve d'une grande virtuosité. Et j'ai vu une fois un pianiste de Jazz qui jouait plus vite que n'importe quel pianiste classique que j'ai pu voir (mais c'était nul quand même ce qu'il faisait).
La seule différence, c'est qu'en Jazz, on improvise plus qu'en classique. Mais il y a des robots en Jazz et des musiciens émouvant en classique.
Voila, pour mon 1000° message, j'ai alimenté un TROLL
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pianomineur
- Messages : 1018
- Enregistré le : jeu. 02 nov., 2006 6:34
- Mon piano : yamaha P140, C. Bechstein B210
dans le film sur ray charles (ray) il me semble me rappeler qu'à un moment il joue le 1er mouvement de la sonate au clair de lune de beethov
la scission jazz/classique est idiote, les grands pianistes de jazz sont sans aucun doutes tous solides techniquement
brad meldhau se dit, il me semble, essentiellement influencé par Schuman ...
la scission jazz/classique est idiote, les grands pianistes de jazz sont sans aucun doutes tous solides techniquement
brad meldhau se dit, il me semble, essentiellement influencé par Schuman ...
Evidemment, les pianistes de jazz aujourd'hui ont une solide technique. Mais mon message était juste destiné à vous faire réagir sur ce jeu de Monk, si particulier et si loin de la technique classique. Maintenant, on peut aussi parler de Cortot qui n'était pas le plus irréprochable et qui pourtant sonnait beaucoup mieux que certains pianistes actuels à la technique de feu. Et en Jazz nous avons le droit à une tripotée de pianistes virtuoses chiants comme la lune; le problème est malgré tout plus facilement repérable puisqu'au moment d'improviser il faut avoir quelque chose à dire et que les bluffers sont vite démasqués. C'est plus difficile en classique puisque le support reste toujours l'oeuvre d'un génie.
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zarathoustra
- Messages : 1878
- Enregistré le : jeu. 22 juin, 2006 1:37
- Mon piano : Pigeon fermier de keriven fourré au foie
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egtegt
- Messages : 3287
- Enregistré le : jeu. 24 juin, 2004 2:17
- Mon piano : Blüthner 2m10 et Casio PX110
- Localisation : Saverne
Tu sais, il n'y a pas que des pianistes "Classiques" ici, il y a aussi pas mal d'amateurs de Jazz et tu te trompes à mon avis sur la différence. Bien sûr qu'il est plus facile de jouer du classique sans rien y comprendre que du Jazz, mais quand tu compares des grands interprétes, alors la difficulté est la même : soit le pianiste comprend ce qu'il joue, l'a intégré, et il est capable de bien le jouer, Soit il n'a rien compris, il se contente d'appliquer des recettes, et alors rien de bien intéressant n'en ressort.antitou a écrit :Et en Jazz nous avons le droit à une tripotée de pianistes virtuoses chiants comme la lune; le problème est malgré tout plus facilement repérable puisqu'au moment d'improviser il faut avoir quelque chose à dire et que les bluffers sont vite démasqués. C'est plus difficile en classique puisque le support reste toujours l'oeuvre d'un génie.
C'est peut-être un peu plus facile à détecter sur un jazzman, mais fondamentalement, ça revient au même. Et il est tout à fait possible de jouer du Bach ou du Beethoven de façon débile, tout génies qu'ils soient
OK egtegt, alors c'est mon écoute qui n'est pas assez affutée. J'ai pourtant des pianistes favoris, mais j'ai du mal à donner tant d'importance à l'interprétation... Pourtant je suis pianiste, et si aujourd'hui je ne joue que du Jazz, mon cursus est à l'origine tout ce qu'on fait de plus classique. Tout ce que je peux dire, c'est que maintenant, quand je déchiffre des oeuvres classiques, je me dis que c'est un bonheur de jouer des choses qui sonnent si bien sans avoir à en douter. Prenez un standard, et vous ressentirez les affres du pianiste qui ne sait jamais s'il est parti dans la bonne direction, si son harmonisation est cohérente, et si son chorus est indispensable. Au moins avec Chopin et consorts il n'y a pas une note à jeter...
Antitou, j'aime bien le style de ta présentation dans ton autre sujet, et en plus tu te réfère d'Henri Michaux, celà me plait... En fait j'ai eu l'impression de trouver pire que moi, et c'est positif dans mon esprit.
Brassens se gaussait des gens "qui sont nés quelque part", moi j'ai toujours un certain agacement face au "gens qui sont pianiste de quelquechose", jazz ou autres, qui le vive moyennement, et qui me taxe de "classique" parce que ch'suis pas de étiquetté à la même chapelle.
ça me rappelle à la fac les étudiants communistes il y a 30 ans : si t'es pas avec nous, t'es contre nous...
Sur de telles bases pleines d'a priori, je demande comment on peut prétendre partir dans un grande tentative de démysthification du technicisme vide de certain pianiste - dits "classique" -, ou de tout autre sujet, même s'il y a effectivment matière à débattre.
Disons que c'était juste pour causer...
Sur la question initiale, est-ce que Monk a fait plus pour la musique que nous tous ici réunis ?
Non, pour info, moi tout seul, je pense que je fais pas mal pour la musique. C'est subjectif, OK, et après ?
Non, ce qui me plairait, c'est que tu nous en parle pour de bon de Monk,
je suis preneur.
NB. Le club des chasseurs de Troll ne se tient plus en ce moment, ils en arrivent même à bourrer les sujets des nouveaux arrivant avec des hors sujets éculés. C'est le monde à l'envers ! Non, c'est la loi de la meute !
Brassens se gaussait des gens "qui sont nés quelque part", moi j'ai toujours un certain agacement face au "gens qui sont pianiste de quelquechose", jazz ou autres, qui le vive moyennement, et qui me taxe de "classique" parce que ch'suis pas de étiquetté à la même chapelle.
ça me rappelle à la fac les étudiants communistes il y a 30 ans : si t'es pas avec nous, t'es contre nous...
Sur de telles bases pleines d'a priori, je demande comment on peut prétendre partir dans un grande tentative de démysthification du technicisme vide de certain pianiste - dits "classique" -, ou de tout autre sujet, même s'il y a effectivment matière à débattre.
Disons que c'était juste pour causer...
Sur la question initiale, est-ce que Monk a fait plus pour la musique que nous tous ici réunis ?
Non, pour info, moi tout seul, je pense que je fais pas mal pour la musique. C'est subjectif, OK, et après ?
Non, ce qui me plairait, c'est que tu nous en parle pour de bon de Monk,
je suis preneur.
NB. Le club des chasseurs de Troll ne se tient plus en ce moment, ils en arrivent même à bourrer les sujets des nouveaux arrivant avec des hors sujets éculés. C'est le monde à l'envers ! Non, c'est la loi de la meute !
Si vous voulez en savoir plus sur Monk, il y a un bon bouquin qui retrace sa vie, écrit par Laurent de Wilde, (pianiste de jazz contemporain). Ca s'appelle Monk. Il y a aussi un film qui s'appelle Straight no Chaser (titre d'une de ses compositions) avec bcp d'image d'archives très interessantes.
Je vous rédige une petite bio vite fait de mémoire... désolé c'est en anglais
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The most important jazz musicians are the ones who are successful in creating their own original world of music with its own rules, logic, and surprises. Thelonious Monk, who was criticized by observers who failed to listen to his music on its own terms, suffered through a decade of neglect before he was suddenly acclaimed as a genius; his music had not changed one bit in the interim. In fact, one of the more remarkable aspects of Monk's music was that it was fully formed by 1947 and he saw no need to alter his playing or compositional style in the slightest during the next 25 years.
Thelonious Monk grew up in New York, started playing piano when he was around five, and had his first job touring as an accompanist to an evangelist. He was inspired by the Harlem stride pianists (James P. Johnson was a neighbor) and vestiges of that idiom can be heard in his later unaccompanied solos. However, when he was playing in the house band of Minton's Playhouse during 1940-1943, Monk was searching for his own individual style. Private recordings from the period find him sometimes resembling Teddy Wilson but starting to use more advanced rhythms and harmonies. He worked with Lucky Millinder a bit in 1942 and was with the Cootie Williams Orchestra briefly in 1944 (Williams recorded Monk's "Epistrophy" in 1942 and in 1944 was the first to record "'Round Midnight"), but it was when he became Coleman Hawkins' regular pianist that Monk was initially noticed. He cut a few titles with Hawkins (his recording debut) and, although some of Hawkins' fans complained about the eccentric pianist, the veteran tenor could sense the pianist's greatness.
The 1945-1954 period was very difficult for Thelonious Monk. Because he left a lot of space in his rhythmic solos and had an unusual technique, many people thought that he was an inferior pianist. His compositions were so advanced that the lazier bebop players (although not Dizzy Gillespie and Charlie Parker) assumed that he was crazy. And Thelonious Monk's name, appearance (he liked funny hats), and personality (an occasionally uncommunicative introvert) helped to brand him as some kind of nut. Fortunately, Alfred Lion of Blue Note believed in him and recorded Monk extensively during 1947-1948 and 1951-1952. He also recorded for Prestige during 1952-1954, had a solo set for Vogue in 1954 during a visit to Paris, and appeared on a Verve date with Bird and Diz. But work was very sporadic during this era and Monk had to struggle to make ends meet.
His fortunes slowly began to improve. In 1955, he signed with Riverside and producer Orrin Keepnews persuaded him to record an album of Duke Ellington tunes and one of standards so his music would appear to be more accessible to the average jazz fan. In 1956 came the classic Brilliant Corners album, but it was the following year when the situation permanently changed. Monk was booked into the Five Spot for a long engagement and he used a quartet that featured tenor saxophonist John Coltrane. Finally, the critics and then the jazz public recognized Thelonious Monk's greatness during this important gig. The fact that he was unique was a disadvantage a few years earlier when all modern jazz pianists were expected to sound like Bud Powell (who was ironically a close friend), but by 1957 the jazz public was looking for a new approach. Suddenly, Monk was a celebrity and his status would not change for the remainder of his career. In 1958, his quartet featured the tenor of Johnny Griffin (who was even more compatible than Coltrane), in 1959 he appeared with an orchestra at Town Hall (with arrangements by Hall Overton), in 1962 he signed with Columbia and two years later was on the cover of Time. A second orchestra concert in 1963 was even better than the first and Monk toured constantly throughout the 1960s with his quartet which featured the reliable tenor of Charlie Rouse. He played with the Giants of Jazz during 1971-1972, but then in 1973 suddenly retired. Monk was suffering from mental illness and, other than a few special appearances during the mid-'70s, he lived the rest of his life in seclusion. After his death it seemed as if everyone was doing Thelonious Monk tributes. There were so many versions of "'Round Midnight" that it was practically a pop hit! But despite the posthumous acclaim and attempts by pianists ranging from Marcus Roberts to Tommy Flanagan to recreate his style, there was no replacement for the original.
Some of Thelonious Monk's songs became standards early on, most notably "'Round Midnight," "Straight No Chaser," "52nd Street Theme," and "Blue Monk." Many of his other compositions have by now been figured out by other jazz musicians and are occasionally performed including "Ruby My Dear," "Well You Needn't," "Off Minor," "In Walked Bud," "Misterioso," "Epistrophy," "I Mean You," "Four in One," "Criss Cross," "Ask Me Now," "Little Rootie Tootie," "Monk's Dream," "Bemsha Swing," "Think of One," "Friday the 13th," "Hackensack," "Nutty," "Brilliant Corners," "Crepuscule With Nellie" (written for his strong and supportive wife), "Evidence," and "Rhythm-a-Ning," Virtually all of Monk's recordings (for Blue Note, Prestige, Vogue, Riverside, Columbia, and Black Lion) have been reissued and among his sidemen through the years were Idrees Sulieman, Art Blakey, Milt Jackson, Lou Donaldson, Lucky Thompson, Max Roach, Julius Watkins, Sonny Rollins, Clark Terry, Gerry Mulligan, John Coltrane, Wilbur Ware, Shadow Wilson, Johnny Griffin, Donald Byrd, Phil Woods, Thad Jones, and Charlie Rouse. His son Thelonious Monk, Jr. (T.S. Monk) has helped keep the hard bop tradition alive with his quintet and has headed the Thelonious Monk Institute, whose yearly competitions succeed in publicizing talented young players.
Je vous rédige une petite bio vite fait de mémoire... désolé c'est en anglais
**********************************************************
The most important jazz musicians are the ones who are successful in creating their own original world of music with its own rules, logic, and surprises. Thelonious Monk, who was criticized by observers who failed to listen to his music on its own terms, suffered through a decade of neglect before he was suddenly acclaimed as a genius; his music had not changed one bit in the interim. In fact, one of the more remarkable aspects of Monk's music was that it was fully formed by 1947 and he saw no need to alter his playing or compositional style in the slightest during the next 25 years.
Thelonious Monk grew up in New York, started playing piano when he was around five, and had his first job touring as an accompanist to an evangelist. He was inspired by the Harlem stride pianists (James P. Johnson was a neighbor) and vestiges of that idiom can be heard in his later unaccompanied solos. However, when he was playing in the house band of Minton's Playhouse during 1940-1943, Monk was searching for his own individual style. Private recordings from the period find him sometimes resembling Teddy Wilson but starting to use more advanced rhythms and harmonies. He worked with Lucky Millinder a bit in 1942 and was with the Cootie Williams Orchestra briefly in 1944 (Williams recorded Monk's "Epistrophy" in 1942 and in 1944 was the first to record "'Round Midnight"), but it was when he became Coleman Hawkins' regular pianist that Monk was initially noticed. He cut a few titles with Hawkins (his recording debut) and, although some of Hawkins' fans complained about the eccentric pianist, the veteran tenor could sense the pianist's greatness.
The 1945-1954 period was very difficult for Thelonious Monk. Because he left a lot of space in his rhythmic solos and had an unusual technique, many people thought that he was an inferior pianist. His compositions were so advanced that the lazier bebop players (although not Dizzy Gillespie and Charlie Parker) assumed that he was crazy. And Thelonious Monk's name, appearance (he liked funny hats), and personality (an occasionally uncommunicative introvert) helped to brand him as some kind of nut. Fortunately, Alfred Lion of Blue Note believed in him and recorded Monk extensively during 1947-1948 and 1951-1952. He also recorded for Prestige during 1952-1954, had a solo set for Vogue in 1954 during a visit to Paris, and appeared on a Verve date with Bird and Diz. But work was very sporadic during this era and Monk had to struggle to make ends meet.
His fortunes slowly began to improve. In 1955, he signed with Riverside and producer Orrin Keepnews persuaded him to record an album of Duke Ellington tunes and one of standards so his music would appear to be more accessible to the average jazz fan. In 1956 came the classic Brilliant Corners album, but it was the following year when the situation permanently changed. Monk was booked into the Five Spot for a long engagement and he used a quartet that featured tenor saxophonist John Coltrane. Finally, the critics and then the jazz public recognized Thelonious Monk's greatness during this important gig. The fact that he was unique was a disadvantage a few years earlier when all modern jazz pianists were expected to sound like Bud Powell (who was ironically a close friend), but by 1957 the jazz public was looking for a new approach. Suddenly, Monk was a celebrity and his status would not change for the remainder of his career. In 1958, his quartet featured the tenor of Johnny Griffin (who was even more compatible than Coltrane), in 1959 he appeared with an orchestra at Town Hall (with arrangements by Hall Overton), in 1962 he signed with Columbia and two years later was on the cover of Time. A second orchestra concert in 1963 was even better than the first and Monk toured constantly throughout the 1960s with his quartet which featured the reliable tenor of Charlie Rouse. He played with the Giants of Jazz during 1971-1972, but then in 1973 suddenly retired. Monk was suffering from mental illness and, other than a few special appearances during the mid-'70s, he lived the rest of his life in seclusion. After his death it seemed as if everyone was doing Thelonious Monk tributes. There were so many versions of "'Round Midnight" that it was practically a pop hit! But despite the posthumous acclaim and attempts by pianists ranging from Marcus Roberts to Tommy Flanagan to recreate his style, there was no replacement for the original.
Some of Thelonious Monk's songs became standards early on, most notably "'Round Midnight," "Straight No Chaser," "52nd Street Theme," and "Blue Monk." Many of his other compositions have by now been figured out by other jazz musicians and are occasionally performed including "Ruby My Dear," "Well You Needn't," "Off Minor," "In Walked Bud," "Misterioso," "Epistrophy," "I Mean You," "Four in One," "Criss Cross," "Ask Me Now," "Little Rootie Tootie," "Monk's Dream," "Bemsha Swing," "Think of One," "Friday the 13th," "Hackensack," "Nutty," "Brilliant Corners," "Crepuscule With Nellie" (written for his strong and supportive wife), "Evidence," and "Rhythm-a-Ning," Virtually all of Monk's recordings (for Blue Note, Prestige, Vogue, Riverside, Columbia, and Black Lion) have been reissued and among his sidemen through the years were Idrees Sulieman, Art Blakey, Milt Jackson, Lou Donaldson, Lucky Thompson, Max Roach, Julius Watkins, Sonny Rollins, Clark Terry, Gerry Mulligan, John Coltrane, Wilbur Ware, Shadow Wilson, Johnny Griffin, Donald Byrd, Phil Woods, Thad Jones, and Charlie Rouse. His son Thelonious Monk, Jr. (T.S. Monk) has helped keep the hard bop tradition alive with his quintet and has headed the Thelonious Monk Institute, whose yearly competitions succeed in publicizing talented young players.
Les stars sont des fleurs sujettes à se faner. Les musiciens sont des arbres, sujets à grandir encore et toujours.